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Hansebubeforum » Technik » Question about main hookwinch on big cranes » Threadansicht

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000 — Direktlink
05.10.2009, 15:46 Uhr
A I Nikolis

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Right now I am designing my own crane ( https://www.hansebubeforum.de/showtopic.php?threadid=14842 ) and I am still think about one thing:
If you have 100m main boom, and a big hookblock parted to ca 44 lines (~22 sheaves) then it would mean you need to have ca 4500m long main wire on the crane (to winch the hook all the way down to the ground). But that would mean a biiiiig winch, so what do they do about this problem in real life? I mean how do they have space for such a big winch in e.g. LR 11350?

Btw: What is the maximum load per part on bigger cranes (CC 8800 for example)? Normal mobile cranes have 12,5t per part.

Alexander
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Dieser Post wurde am 05.10.2009 um 15:47 Uhr von AIN_002 editiert.
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001 — Direktlink
05.10.2009, 16:00 Uhr
Gast:Steve12777
Gäste


you'll never need 44 lines up to 100 m

have a look to Liebherr (eg LR 11350: http://www.liebherr.com/catXmedia/cr/Documents/82a1b77e-3990-427a-a118-d972aafc42d4.pdf) on page 14 ypu can see the hook and on page 16 you can see, that the longest main wire is 1500 m long...
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002 — Direktlink
05.10.2009, 17:42 Uhr
A I Nikolis

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Indeed, you never need to lift so heavy at that height.. But at least my crane is bigger so I will have space for a bigger winch. It will be able to lift heavy ( =more parts) at higher heights so it's fine.

Alexander
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003 — Direktlink
05.10.2009, 19:55 Uhr
Kristoffer



Split the 4500 meter wire on to two winches each covering 11 sheaves...
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Grüße / Greetings

Kristoffer
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004 — Direktlink
06.10.2009, 07:29 Uhr
A I Nikolis

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Yes good idea (as CC 8800). But do you have any idea what's the maximum load per part in the wire of big cranes? As I'm taking a look at the chassis of my crane, I'd say it will take more than 2500t.. more like 3000t so I need to know how many sheaves the biggest hookblock setup will need.
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Dieser Post wurde am 06.10.2009 um 07:29 Uhr von AIN_002 editiert.
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005 — Direktlink
06.10.2009, 08:07 Uhr
robertd



Hi Alexander,

Just take a look at some of the data sheets of the big ones.

For example:
LIEBHERR LR 11350 has got two main winches, each equipped with 1500 m rope with a diameter of 38 mm. The maximum single line pull is 310 kN (1 kg equals 9,81 N, 1 kN = 1000 N).
The biggest hook block for the LR 11350 has got 2x26 lines, so we've got 2x26x310 = 16120 kN, or (divided by 9,81) 1643 t.
Now that's what the ropes and winches could pull theoretically - the maximum load for the LR 11350 are 1350 tons. So the extra ~300 tons are for safety reasons and (part of it) for loss, e.g. due to friction in the sheaves, weight of the rope or so. Of course the rope itself will take much higher loads due to safety reasons - the single line pull is given by the power of the winch.

For the DEMAG CC 9800 the values are:
rope diameter = 40 mm
length = 2x1540 m
single line pull = 352 kN
No. of lines = 2x26
so we get:
2x26x352 = 18304 kN, or 1865 t.
maximum capacity for the CC 9800 is 1600 t.

so if you take these dimensions and blow them up to fit your crane, you'll be on a good way. Just don't forget that the force depends on the cross sectional area of the rope - so if you've got a rope dia 80 mm it will (roughly) take 4 times the load of a rope dia 40 mm.
To determine how much sheaves should be used on the biggest hook block, there are some points to be thought about, for example:
- less sheaves should be better for assembly of the crane, since pulling the rope through the sheave isn't a really easy thing
- less sheaves also mean less rope needed for the same lifting height
- the maximum number of sheaves on the boom head on crawler cranes is usually given by the width of the boom head
- the sheave diameter, which is given by the rope diameter, could be a point when you get to the transport dimensions of the boom parts. I don't have a rule for it at the moment, but I think it's something like 20 or 30 times rope diameter = sheave diameter. I'd have to look that up...

So, there are much things you can think about when building a crane

have fun,

cu,
robert
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006 — Direktlink
06.10.2009, 08:45 Uhr
A I Nikolis

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Great, thanks! So if I'm not completely out of my mind, a single line on CC 9800 takes ~35,9t?
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007 — Direktlink
06.10.2009, 09:27 Uhr
robertd



Exactly


cu,

robert

Dieser Post wurde am 06.10.2009 um 09:28 Uhr von robertd editiert.
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008 — Direktlink
06.10.2009, 09:31 Uhr
A I Nikolis

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Thanks! I'll take 40mm

I have thought about 54 sheaves ( =108 lines) which would be ~3875t capacity, but then I also need to count (as you said) on the weight of the hook, rope itself, friction etc, so then it will take ~3500 I guess.
Can anyone please help me to count how long 40mm line a single "winch-roller" (or what ever it's called) like in the pic would be able to take? Each "side" of the winch (which are split by the blue line) will then handle 27 sheaves( =54 lines) each.


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Dieser Post wurde am 06.10.2009 um 16:46 Uhr von AIN_002 editiert.
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009 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 07:57 Uhr
Markus Brenner



More then 10 layers of rope are not good so we get a layerstackheight of 400mm. This plus the 1500mm of the center gives the average diameter of 1900mm equals 5,9m of one average layer. 10 times and you get 59m in one "stack". The 8,5m minus some length to seperate the drums will give roughly 8,3m. Divided by 40mm gives 207 windings. So you get 12,3km rope on both drums, ie. 6,1km on a single drum. Max boomheight at full load will be then roughly 100m.
--
Markus

Aktuelles Langzeitprojekt: http://www.chiaroscuro.at/projekte/ak850.htm
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010 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 11:56 Uhr
Kristoffer



How are you going to split a winch in two, when all the wire is on the winch??

Or do you want to attach two wires onto one winch?
--
Grüße / Greetings

Kristoffer
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011 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 12:12 Uhr
Markus Brenner



I think it would come out like the AK850 and similar cranes where the drums are side by side and mechanically seperated. Like you have suggested in post 003.
--
Markus

Aktuelles Langzeitprojekt: http://www.chiaroscuro.at/projekte/ak850.htm
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012 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 12:39 Uhr
Gast:Steve12777
Gäste


But how will you transport a winch with a diameter of 8m (and 4,3 in height), which is - I think - not a lucrative business for everyone...
you want to build a "mobil crane" not a fixed one like the harbour cranes?
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013 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 14:44 Uhr
Kristoffer




Zitat:
Markus Brenner postete
Like you have suggested in post 003.

What I meant was, that instead of using one winch to cover 22 sheaves you use 2 separate winches, which each have to cover 11 sheaves...

I would aim for two winches with a diameter of around 3 meters...
--
Grüße / Greetings

Kristoffer

Dieser Post wurde am 07.10.2009 um 14:46 Uhr von Kristoffer editiert.
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014 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 15:35 Uhr
Markus Brenner




Zitat:
Kristoffer postete
What I meant was, that instead of using one winch to cover 22 sheaves you use 2 separate winches, which each have to cover 11 sheaves...

I would aim for two winches with a diameter of around 3 meters...

That is exactly what i meant too :-)) Each winch covers half the shears.
Beside two winches are faster than one.


Zitat:
Steve12777 postete
But how will you transport a winch with a diameter of 8m (and 4,3 in height), which is - I think - not a lucrative business for everyone...
you want to build a "mobil crane" not a fixed one like the harbour cranes?

If not more then 10 layers are on the drum then he will get a diameter of 2,3m which ist road-transportable.
--
Markus

Aktuelles Langzeitprojekt: http://www.chiaroscuro.at/projekte/ak850.htm

Dieser Post wurde am 07.10.2009 um 15:35 Uhr von Markus Brenner editiert.
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015 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 17:24 Uhr
A I Nikolis

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Hmm... Yes the idea was to split the winch (as with the blue line in the pic) which would mean that each side would handle 27 sheaves (54 lines). But of course it isn't good for transportation, so good idea as you said, to have two separate winches that are synchronized

Edit: @Steve12777: Nope it will be "mobile" crawler crane . Now when I changed my idea about the winch (as I wrote above), no single part will be wider than 5m as far as I know except the boom If the crane superstructure will be ca 10m wide when it's assembled, how should I do with the boom parts ? The idea with the crane is as I said among others, to be able to lift heavy at high heights so the boom needs to be wide.
But If I can't come up with any solutions about that, I'll still keep on making the crane.
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Dieser Post wurde am 07.10.2009 um 17:33 Uhr von AIN_002 editiert.
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016 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 19:35 Uhr
Kristoffer



Apparently there are more ways to interpret "split winch"...


Zitat:
AIN_002 postete
to have two separate winches that are synchronized

That was what I meant.


Zitat:
AIN_002 postete
If the crane superstructure will be ca 10m wide when it's assembled, how should I do with the boom parts

Two booms each 4,5 meters wide mounted next to eachother like the CC8800 Twin?
--
Grüße / Greetings

Kristoffer

Dieser Post wurde am 07.10.2009 um 19:37 Uhr von Kristoffer editiert.
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017 — Direktlink
07.10.2009, 21:03 Uhr
A I Nikolis

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The thing is that the boom will be ca 10x10m,, so then I would need 4x 5x5m big parts for every boom part... It will not be a twin boom like 8800 twin
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018 — Direktlink
04.04.2010, 05:57 Uhr
erlogproductions



well I have a question about rope diameters for cranes.

is this true? if not could some one please explain me how it is done.
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019 — Direktlink
04.04.2010, 07:46 Uhr
Gast:Steve12777
Gäste


if what is true? If a rope with one cm can lift a capacity of 3266tons or what do you want to know?

I'm missing a better question than "is this true?".
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020 — Direktlink
04.04.2010, 12:34 Uhr
Sebastian Suchanek
Admin
Avatar von Sebastian Suchanek


Zitat:
Steve12777 postete
if what is true? If a rope with one cm can lift a capacity of 3266tons or what do you want to know?

Just for the record: The presumed capacity is 3266kg (or 2962kg in case that "tons" are meant to be short tons), not 3266 tons. Keep in mind the different decimal separators in English and German...


Bye,

Sebastian
--
Baumaschinen-Modelle.net - Schwerlast-Rhein-Main.de
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021 — Direktlink
04.04.2010, 16:02 Uhr
Gast:Steve12777
Gäste


hast recht, das (AE or BE) Pünktchen ist ja unser Komma. Aber dennoch habe ich seine Frage nicht verstanden, was er möchte... Du?
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022 — Direktlink
04.04.2010, 16:51 Uhr
Speddy



Ich denke mal das er wissen möchte ob es wahr ist das ein 10mm dickes Stahlseil eine Zugkraft von 3,266 US Tons bzw. 2,962 metrischen Tonnen hat.

mfg

Stefan Seifert
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023 — Direktlink
04.04.2010, 17:35 Uhr
A I Nikolis

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He means 3,266 tons (3266kg), I spoke with him about it today
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